Sonic.net

Sonic is well known for privacy, but how does that work with something like FTTN where Sonic is a reseller? What can and can't AT&T do? Is there anything with respect to contractual agreements governing what data AT&T can or can't keep?

The lack of comment from Sonic every time someone has raised this question speaks volumes.

netllama wrote:The lack of comment from Sonic every time someone has raised this question speaks volumes.

I'm not sure what you're expecting.

For ADSL1: IP is in Sonic's space; they control the line cards; they control bandwidth policy. For FTTN: IP is in AT&T's space; gateway firmware has -att customizations; Sonic has no significant input on gateway changes; product is limited to 45 Mbps regardless of maximum sync rate. Sonic has no visibility on the data FTTN users send across the network much less policies to act upon them. The only thing Sonic can control is VoIP but I think you're among the customers who don't care about this aspect of Fusion FTTN.

Guest wrote:

netllama wrote:The lack of comment from Sonic every time someone has raised this question speaks volumes.

I'm not sure what you're expecting.

For ADSL1: IP is in Sonic's space; they control the line cards; they control bandwidth policy. For FTTN: IP is in AT&T's space; gateway firmware has -att customizations; Sonic has no significant input on gateway changes; product is limited to 45 Mbps regardless of maximum sync rate. Sonic has no visibility on the data FTTN users send across the network much less policies to act upon them. The only thing Sonic can control is VoIP but I think you're among the customers who don't care about this aspect of Fusion FTTN.

I'm expecting honesty & transparency. Sonic loves to brag about how much they value their customer's privacy, but the reality is that they are promoting & selling a product for which they can't guarantee any privacy. I'm not sure how they'd expect to get another high EFF privacy rating under the current circumstances.

netllama wrote:I'm expecting honesty & transparency. Sonic loves to brag about how much they value their customer's privacy, but the reality is that they are promoting & selling a product for which they can't guarantee any privacy. I'm not sure how they'd expect to get another high EFF privacy rating under the current circumstances.

Why do you think Sonic is reselling AT&T U-verse in the first place? For me it's a good compromise for people who are outside the reach of infrastructure they have more control over and want more bandwidth. If one is technically adept they would know what kind of privacy the base Fusion FTTN product offers. I'm eagerly awaiting for their VPN solution.

I think you failed to understand how the EFF rating is given. Their criteria is based on infrastructure has control over. Nowhere does it state a company has to force a partner to conform to its own policies. https://www.eff.org/who-has-your-back-2014#criteria

I wasn't looking for any debates, and I understand completely why Sonic has to act as a reseller in my situation. I know that AT&T is contractually obligated for some things and not others. I don't think there's any intentional lack of transparency on Sonic's part, but Sonic didn't make any statements to me one way or another. It wasn't until I saw the name servers and IP address that was assigned that I realize that for all intents and purposes I'm on AT&T's network while with ADSL I was on Sonic's network but using AT&T's lines.

Given the situation I'm in now, I simply want to know what AT&T is obligated to do by contract, what they are prohibited from doing by contract, and what they are allowed to do. For example, I was told that they aren't allowed to throttle my connection according to the contract. Whether an agreement mentions what they can and can't do with my data is something I'd have no way of knowing. I can't blame Sonic for anything they can't do, but I'd simply like to understand it.

wresnick wrote:I wasn't looking for any debates, and I understand completely why Sonic has to act as a reseller in my situation. I know that AT&T is contractually obligated for some things and not others. I don't think there's any intentional lack of transparency on Sonic's part, but Sonic didn't make any statements to me one way or another. It wasn't until I saw the name servers and IP address that was assigned that I realize that for all intents and purposes I'm on AT&T's network while with ADSL I was on Sonic's network but using AT&T's lines.

Given the situation I'm in now, I simply want to know what AT&T is obligated to do by contract, what they are prohibited from doing by contract, and what they are allowed to do. For example, I was told that they aren't allowed to throttle my connection according to the contract. Whether an agreement mentions what they can and can't do with my data is something I'd have no way of knowing. I can't blame Sonic for anything they can't do, but I'd simply like to understand it.

There were a lot of discussion about Fusion FTTN before it was rolled out and Sonic had indicated the IP space is within AT&T's.

See:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2746
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2687
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2722
viewtopic.php?p=14971#p14971

It's unfortunate there is no Wiki entry as the search in the forums is quite poor. I've asked the Voice wiki be updated with the codes provided by Tim Jackson recently or else they'll eventually get lost as well. Someone at Sonic needs to update their Wiki 'cuz regular users can't edit.

Also see: http://www.pressdemocrat.com/home/39000 ... -att-works (Page 3)

Jasper pointed out that when a customer uses Sonic’s Fusion service based on AT&T FTTN, the IP address assigned to the customer and the IP transport is provided by AT&T. That might be a concern for customers who chose Sonic because of its strict privacy policies.

But Jasper said Sonic offers a free virtual private network, or VPN, that creates an encrypted, secure tunnel to Sonic’s network and customers with a Sonic IP address. After that, all Internet use goes by way of that encrypted tunnel and through Sonic.

The one downside, he said, is that the process slows speeds down by 5 percent.

AT&T spokesman Alex Carey said the company could not comment on its business deal with Sonic because of a “customer confidentiality agreement.” Carey did confirm that “AT&T provides some but may not provide all of the services that make up Sonic’s Fusion FTTN.”

wresnick wrote:
Given the situation I'm in now, I simply want to know what AT&T is obligated to do by contract, what they are prohibited from doing by contract, and what they are allowed to do. For example, I was told that they aren't allowed to throttle my connection according to the contract. Whether an agreement mentions what they can and can't do with my data is something I'd have no way of knowing. I can't blame Sonic for anything they can't do, but I'd simply like to understand it.

ATT as policy plays well with "Six strikes," so if you get a lot of letters from MPAA or RIAA ATT may eventually approach Sonic about terminating the account.

I do not know what, if any, recourse you or Sonic have in this case.

ATT as contracted is leasing space in their central infrastructure to the various three letter agencies. There is no doubt also a fee sheet for collecting information on individual customers - most of the big ISPs have a rate sheet for assisting in warrantless surveillance.

Oh, you meant what ATT is contractually obliged to do *for* sonic and *for* sonic customers' privacy, rather than *to* sonic customers?

Almost certainly bupkus.

However: when I moved from Sonic DSL service to FTTN service, I did not receive a written notification of different or new privacy policies.

Sonic's a smart bunch of people; they may have been able to set up the wholesaling such that their business policy around privacy extends to that part of the ATT network their customers use before the data leave the central office, more or less.

for me, the FTTN service is a good one even at the cost of a lot of the bandwidth going to encryption overhead and added latency. It's so much faster than straight DSL and the total cost is so competitive that I now have better privacy than I did before.

It really is too bad that the kind of setup I'm building isn't offered as an out of the box add-on - that to maintain some level of privacy you need to have resources and time to invest.

The reality is that the setup I'm working on for my household would still have been needed (and was partially built) when Sonic was my straight-up ISP. I actually wanted whole-dwelling encryption but realized that for the hardware I was using at the time no one sold the other end at a decent price.

Guest wrote:
But Jasper said Sonic offers a free virtual private network, or VPN, that creates an encrypted, secure tunnel to Sonic’s network and customers with a Sonic IP address. After that, all Internet use goes by way of that encrypted tunnel and through Sonic.

The one downside, he said, is that the process slows speeds down by 5 percent.

How do I use it?

This covers a good bunch of clients:

https://wiki.sonic.net/wiki/VPN_Service

I have used it on Ipod, Ipad, and Linux with vpnc.