Sonic.net

Computer: Relatively modern laptop (about 3-4 years), Windows XP, browser is IE (version unknown). No specific web or ppp accelerators. Laptop is overloaded with software, running low on memory, starting any program takes "a long time". Installing interesting software on her laptop is a no-no, since it's controlled by her office's IT department. But once the browser is running, loading web pages is limited by internet speed only. Browsing the web works perfectly fine, and when the going is good, she can listen to internet radio, watch sports events video over the net, copy big files to/from her office over a VPN connection, and generally get work done. A web-based mail reader is just perfect for this situation.

The problem is our last mile connection. Because we live in an area where the nearest DSL or cable-modem is several miles away, we get our connection through a wireless internet co-op, which is overloaded at several points, in particular the final ingress/egress. To mitigate that, individual customers are capped at 2Mbits/s. Right now, I'm getting ping times to shell.sonic.net of 31ms, and throughput of 230 kByte/s (just measured that with wget of a large, sequential file that will not compress). This is acceptable, and at this point, most things would work reasonably well. But that's in the early afternoon, when few people are at home. In the evening (when everyone is trying to use this network to watch videos), typical throughputs are so variable they are hard to measure; they tend to average 50-100 kBit/s (getting 10-20 kBytes per second is typical). At those times, watching video over the net is hopeless, and internet radio is very iffy. The problem are the ping times: it's not uncommon to see them average 900ms to 1200ms, with measurable packet loss (say 20% or 30%). For a tcp connection of a long sequential file, this is bad, but not a big issue, as modern tcp implementations can handle that and stream files anyhow (so those ping times and packet losses are reflected in the measured bandwidth above). That's why even at those times, you can look at static web pages: http opens one tcp connection, sucks in one page, and the underlying reliable transmission layer handles all the mess you throw at it. The price you pay is in the connection setup/breakdown time.

I would hypothesize that the problem with the new mail is that it doesn't use put/get to prepare http pages at the server, and instead uses Ajax to run tight-loop protocols over the network, transmitting perhaps individual mouse events and key strokes, and returning screen updates at the level of individual characters (just an educated guess). Over a network with pingtimes O(1s), that's not going to be joyful.

My wife has been deliberately trying to use the new web mail (to some extent in order to defuse the situation, and make me less upset). Yesterday evening it took her 45 minutes to send one e-mail.

I'm thinking of an alternate solution: Just use IMAP. Set up a hidden Windows machine for her (for example in a VM on my server at home), and exports its user disk via sharing. Install a sensible mail reader (Thunderbird?) there, and have her use that machine over VNC from her laptop. The only problem is that attachments can't be directly saved from the mail reader to her machine, but would have to be double-bounced through a shared (network-mounted) directory.

Or convince her to completely separate home and work, and use a home machine with a sensible mail mechanism at home. We have a half dozen spare laptops around the house. But for her it is a question of convenience that everything is in one place.

I understand that our situation is quite unusual (not many people use a local internet connection with such performance characteristics), but it does point out that there is a difference in the underlying architecture between new and old web mail, which is reflected in different response to environmental stimuli.

P.S. While typing this (and fixing lunch for my kid), the network speed dropped to 7 KByte/s with ping times to sonic of 380ms and 35% packet loss. But I'm still browsing the web: looking at Google news, reading and writing in a technical discussion forum, getting e-mails.

Just caught up with this thread -- all 20 pages of it. (Well, most of it -- when Godwin's Law showed up, I started skimming messages, but I think I've got the gist.)

I can't comment much about the decisions being made -- yet -- except that webmail here at Sonic.net has a long and checkered history, and support has worked to see it simplified for many years. (Yes: years.) Since many folks consider email to be the most important application on the Net, folks will be understandably vexed when someone decides to change it.

What is more unfortunate, however, is the lack of transparency I see in this thread from our company. We here at Sonic.net pride ourselves with being open about our decision-making -- or at least, I hope we are.

The evidence to support this can be found in how we've moved these very discussions from the walled garden of our own newsgroups to a very public web forum, open for all to see. It is also found in how we put our system status blog, the "MOTD", right on our home page.

Unfortunately, we do sometimes send mixed messages, such as setting a regrettable autocratic tone to what may indeed turn out to be a very good technical decision.

And if there's one thing I've learned through the years, it's that systems decisions require more than just technical merit, but also human merit: And if one is unwilling to defend either sort of merit for a project in the very thread where the project is announced, perhaps one needs to revisit the all-or-nothing thinking that gets one backed into that corner in the first place.

I also had a few words here about hasty generalizations and "Doty's theory of large organization factionalism", but I'd rather keep the conversation pleasant and short, rather than devolving into tl;dr.

Finally, I'd like to point out that in discussions with differences of opinions, a little charity and respect goes a long way -- and I'm surprised to see steeled Usenet veterans, who should know better, nevertheless devolve such discussions into retreats to Godwin's Law and other such nastiness. (Or "my way or the highway" declarations, for that matter.) That may sound weird coming from me, but I'd like to think I've grown quite a bit since my "flamey" days.

In short: Do you think black belt karate experts display their fighting prowess during disagreements at town hall meetings? No? Then someone with a PhD. in "Baddassed Invective" might want to consider when it is a good idea to be the wise, calm sensei -- and when a flying karate kick is warranted.

That's all for now -- hopefully better news later.

On Sunday Apr 14, 2013 at 3:12 pm I submitted a long Reply to this "Official" Thread
that was started by Kelsey Cummings, the Sonic.net System Architect requesting user
feedback regarding the new Beta RoundCube WebMail.

It was admittedly a very long post and possibly difficult to read/digest, especially
considering some of the intentionally redundant points. I had put quite a lot of
thought into the post and made it only after following these threads for a while and
not until after independently and extensively using and testing the RoundCube Beta
Webmail.

I was motivated to provide what I thought would be constructive feedback to the other
users that had also bothered to post comments to this or similar threads but, also to
the Sonic Team.

To my surprise, so far, NO-ONE has replied to it directly or commented on it in any
related threads NOR has there been ANY response privately or in the forums by anyone
from Sonic.


So, I've asked myself Why this might be and come up with several additional
questions, speculations and thoughts for anyone who might be interested...


1) Is it possible that only a very tiny albeit vocal minority of Sonic customers
even CARE at all that RoundCube WebMail is slated to replace all other Sonic
WebMail interfaces?


2) Do MOST Sonic customers possibly not care at all because they currently don't
even use ANY of the Sonic WebMail interfaces, instead...

a) they currently use either a local Mail client via POP, IMAP or forwarding,
(like Thunderbird, Outlook, etc. and/or a mobile app) and/or a third-party
WebMail service, (like Gmail, Yahoo, HotMail/Outlook.com, GMX, etc.), OR,

b) they don't use their Sonic email services at all and exclusively use other
corporate, hosted or third-party email services/providers?

Note: I'm pretty sure that Sonic used presumably extensive data logs to
answer this question internally as part of their decision process.


3) Is it possible that Sonic no longer considers it worthwhile to maintain the
old WebMail interfaces because they are not used very much anymore?


4) Is it possible that internally there are additional business and/or strategic
considerations that are part of the decision to move to a single new
OpenSource WebMail that has not been publicly explained to date?


5) Is it possible that Sonic knows very well that RoundCube WebMail...

a) is NOT really an upgrade to AtMail considering many of the features,
refinements and capabilities that it already offers and that RoundCube
may never be able match, even in the long-term future and/or

b) is a much bigger than desired upgrade for some users, requiring more
user system and bandwidth resources and capabilities from the Sonic
users who are still relying on SquirrelMail, NutsMail or the simpler
AtMail versions?


6) Does Sonic already expect that they may upset a few existing customers and
maybe even lose a few but, consider this a preferable tradeoff vs. the
ongoing costs and resources required to maintain, upgrade and support the
multiple existing WebMail user interface software?


7) Has Sonic decided not to upgrade to a commercial WebMail software like the
latest AtMail commercial WebMail product that would potentially add
features, functionality and flexibility not currently available in any
decent OpenSource project because of the additional potentially
expensive licensing costs that a commercial product would add to the
Sonic operating costs?


8) Is Sonic just waiting for the "storm" of complaints and protestations by
a relatively small but vocal minority of Sonic users, (over the announced
WebMail infrastructure changes), to die down before proceeding
autocratically without allowing or engaging in further discussions or
even providing meaningful explanations and/or justifications?


Why I want and still plan to stay with Sonic, (the good stuff)...
I for one use Sonic Email and their other services BECAUSE they still host
them in-house and they also have had vastly greater support and respect for
customer/user privacy, net-freedoms, Constitutional/Bill-Of-Rights and the
related protections, etc. compared with almost any other similar and still
remaining service provider operating out of the United States. Service
Providers like Sonic.net are sadly becoming an extreme rarity in the U.S.
and that is of serious concern for those of us who care about these issues.

I want Sonic to succeed and to continue to be a maverick that continues to
hold dear and champion for customer rights and freedoms, not intentionally
partnering with government agencies and other large corporations but,
instead resisting even challenging these trends whenever/however possible.

Sonic also seems to not follow the egregious trends in the industry to
implement policies and deploy technologies to monitor, track, limit and
censor users and their Internet activity and even to manipulate content
and sell user info along with usage and tracking data to government
agencies and other corporations for fun, profit and for special "favors".

I'm also well aware that many ISPs, businesses and other providers that
previously offered email services have moved to third-party email providers
altogether, (like those offered by Google and others). I'm very glad that
Sonic doesn't SEEM to be moving or intending to move in that direction.

Finally, I want to support and be part of open, honest, democratic,
preferably local companies and organizations that are or operate like
co-operatives rather than typical large, bottom-line only corporations.


What I hope Sonic will still consider related to WebMail...
The Sonic WebMail has been an important feature for me for the above
reasons and because it avoids having to use a dedicated client which is
often difficult, impractical or impossible for various reasons.

I also DO NOT want to regularly use or support third-party email service
providers, (like Gmail, Outlook.com, HotMail, YahooMail and the countless
others out there) for many reasons not the least of which are all the
issues of privacy, etc. already mentioned.

What I am requesting and would really like is to continue having an
excellent Sonic WebMail interface that is at least as or more useful,
flexible, powerful, fast, readable and usable for "power" users as the
current AtMail (Advanced IE/FF) interface.

I was initially very enthusiastic about RoundCube and spent considerable
time and effort over several days to learn it while trying very hard to
find ways to configure and "tweak" it.

RoundCube does have some nice features that I do also like. Unfortunately,
an extensive and quite objective Side-By-Side comparison has convinced me
that RoundCube doesn't currently offer core critical features, performance
and characteristics already present in AtMail. Please see my previous post
for more details.

RoundCube is probably adequate for many users especially those that only
use Sonic WebMail ocasionaly. But, for "power" users who have come to rely
heavily on the power, speed, flexibility and superior interface of AtMail
while managing Mailboxes and folders with large volumes of email, RoundCube
is a real downgrade and an overall disappointment.

BUT, I DO NOT consider AtMail even the Advanced IE/FF interface "perfect"
by any means, just a much better alternative than RoundCube at this point.


Now the Reality Check...
The reality is that Sonic users that use and actually care about the
Sonic WebMail AND wish to stay with Sonic may need to accept...

a) the inferior properties and eye/ergonomics of RoundCube especially if
they are used to the Advanced AtMail features, and/or

b) the slower performance and functionality of RoundCube when there are
insufficient bandwidth or system/device resources;

c) or optionally STOP using Sonic WebMail altogether and migrate to
using a local POP/IMAP client OR a third-party WebMail provider.


Some additional Info about AtMail and Sonic...
For those users who don't know, AtMail WebMail is a fairly costly
commercial product offered by, you guessed it, AtMail. It is quite a good
WebMail software product especially the latest updated versions.
Several years ago the AtMail company forked off a "Lite" version of their
AtMail WebMail product and called it "AtMail Open", I believe, and then
offered it for free as OpenSource software.
I believe that Sonic then jumped on this opportunity to be able to
offer Sonic users the option of an advanced WebMail interface that
offered many more features vs. SquirrelMail and/or NutsMail at little
additional operating cost. Unfortunately this software "fork" was not
updated very much and the company discontinued the product and all
support for it recently. They now only offer various licensed versions
that are likely and understandably way to expensive for Sonic to even
bother considering.


Additional thought regarding RoundCube...
It's possible that the RoundCube software code design has limitations
that would require extensive modifications to add some of the core
critical characteristics, properties and capabilities of AtMail.
Furthermore, current available RoundCube plug-ins do not add these core
features either. (It's worth noting that most of the more advanced plug-ins
available for RoundCube are commercial products that must be purchased.)

"Is it possible that Sonic no longer considers it worthwhile to maintain the
old WebMail interfaces because they are not used very much anymore?"

So -- how many people are using them, and how often?

That is, how many according to login records, not according to how many people showed up at the forum thread. WHen I call up the Webmail menu, I just cursor straight to the bottom for Squirrelmail and click on it. I don't read fine print at the top of the screen about a Beta that I have no interest in. Dunno how I happened to see a fine print notice this time.

And if few are using it -- how much trouble can it be to go on maintaining it? Even if you dropped support for it, some of us are already familiar enough to go on using it, at least to give ourselves longer than till the 22nd to explore other options.

@ Scott:

I should keep quiet for reasons only Scott and I know, but since parts of his excellent post are about me, I'll reply.

Scott wrote: "Just caught up with this thread -- all 20 pages of it. (Well, most of it -- when Godwin's Law showed up, I started skimming messages [...]"

I hope you didn't skip all the important contributions by others (especially those fantastic ones by "nliten"), and all the heartfelt pleas and begging to reconsider, including now threats of a lawsuit, just because I mentioned Hitler. I also mentioned Stalin but not Kim Jong Un or that *April 20* would have been a more appropriate date to kill SquirrelMail -- it's Hitler's birthday!

I also *knew* that as soon as I -- after politely pleading and begging but not getting anywhere -- compared the autocratic System Architect ("this option is not on the table") to other dictators, the always *anonymous* $#!+heads would drag out the lame Godwin's Law. Ivan Petrovich Pavlov is laughing in his grave!

Scott wrote: "What is more unfortunate, however, is the lack of transparency I see in this thread from our company."

Exactly! Sonic.net's *icy silence* and ignoring us is driving some of us to less polite ways of intercourse. It's like talking to a wall and being intercoursed.

Scott wrote: "Unfortunately, we do sometimes send mixed messages, such as setting a regrettable autocratic tone [...]"

Bingo! Thank you for admitting it. With "autocratic" we're back to my fitting Hitler comparison.

Scott wrote: "Do you think black belt karate experts display their fighting prowess during disagreements at town hall meetings? No? Then someone with a PhD. in "Baddassed Invective" might want to consider when it is a good idea to be the wise, calm sensei -- and when a flying karate kick is warranted."

Scott, you may have noticed that this 15-year veteran of multilingual flame wars has been a good boy and not flamed any of the anonymous cowards whose only contributions have been screeching "Aman said Hitler! Aman said Hitler!" They are below my dignity and unfit for this forum.

Now watch them crawl out from under their rocks again....

Respectfully,

Reinhold {Rey} Aman
[email protected]é

aman wrote:...

If you really are as old as you say you are, you would know precisely that Hitler's actions are not comparable to what is happening here. If you can't have a little perspective and use some tact but instead throw a tantrum, you've lost credibility to your cause.

mary wrote:And if few are using it -- how much trouble can it be to go on maintaining it?

The more a service serves, the cheaper it is; the less it serves, the more expensive it is. Sonic support alluded to what else is required for maintaining the other versions: machines need to have hardware monitored, patched, serviced, upgraded. Software have to be upgraded when there are vulnerabilities and people have to monitor/maintain it. I know it's all too easy to think well it's working now just leave it like that forever. Well that kind of thinking is why there are so many botnets out there.

Someone gets it! Thank you Scott.

scott wrote:... What is more unfortunate, however, is the lack of transparency I see in this thread from our company.
...
Unfortunately, we do sometimes send mixed messages, such as setting a regrettable autocratic tone to what may indeed turn out to be a very good technical decision.
...

There is a German saying: "the tone makes the music". It means: how you say something can be just as important as what you say.

I work in a technical field myself. I understand that many technical decisions will have to make someone unhappy, because they are usually conflicting requirements and too many stakeholders (and I'm usually on the other side of this, not as the consumer but as the provider). If someone tells me that they'll have to make a decision, and they can explain the real-world reasons for that decision and those reasons are sensible, but unfortunately it will have to make me unhappy, then I'll be unhappy but not upset. And if it impacts me, I'll have a strong drink, and then find a workaround.

If someone had asked: "the number of users of webmail is small, the effort require to maintain it is large, we have too many versions, how can we prune this shrub? what would work for you?", I would have been maybe a little unhappy, but not upset. But that's not what happened. Instead we get a fait accompli presented, and the people who claim to be responsible for the decision are wasting their time with minutiae in this thread, instead of looking at the big picture.

What happened here was different. The first warning I saw was that the announcement that the only mail service that works for one of the users in our household is going away in three weeks. And then the explanation I find here is that the reason is that it is "too old", and that this decision if not up for debate. That's not a justification, that's attitude. Life is too short to deal with attitude. This behavior is in such contrast to the unbelievably good service I've received from Sonic over the years, it's inexplicable. If this is a symptom of a new corporate culture, then I need a new ISP.

Guesty Guesterson wrote:Also...
When I try to use RoundCube's 'right-click' features, the options are obscured by my OS's contextual menu (which is also activated by a click of the right mouse-button). Seems like a bug (or at least an annoyance) in the RoundCube Interface.

Is it your OS' context menu, or your browser's?

I get that behavior, but it's my browser's context menu. I could change a setting in the browser, but there are a couple of web sites that I use that intentionally disable the right-click context menu, preventing me from using several of its functions. In that situation, all I need to do is press the Esc key, which dismisses the browser's menu and lets me use the page's menu.

The computer I use for travelling, connecting at various wifi's and in motel rooms where you hope the system works at all, has a screen with 4 vertical inches of usable space.* On both Squirrel and Beta, on the first screen, 1 1/2 inches is mostly white space** -- wide bars with a few words here and there, or big icons. However on Squirrel, when you scroll down past the first screen, the whole 4 inches is usable for message headers.

This is a Win 7 Acer 135 GB Intel; hardware screen is 5x9"

* between the Windows / Chrome's bars

** or black, or blue, whatever