[Request] Static IP addresses for 10G customers

Internet access discussion, including Fusion, IP Broadband, and Gigabit Fiber!
14 posts Page 1 of 2
by dearscott » Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:13 am
I know construction is underway for 10G fiber provided by Sonic. Please consider offering one or more static IP's to go with it. Thanks.
by dane » Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:39 am
dearscott wrote:I know construction is underway for 10G fiber provided by Sonic. Please consider offering one or more static IP's to go with it. Thanks.
It's something we've long had requests for, but we've not done to date it for a few reasons:

First, we found that static IP configurations created real challenges for us as we grow and optimize our IP network, at the edge and the transport network around the region. Large pools of dynamic IPs are easily changed, expanded, etc - whereas small numbers of individual static IPs created technical debt in the network configuration that was a challenge at times.

Second, the need for static IPs has declined in recent years. When we first launched our Fusion xDSL service, customers with video camera systems, early home automation, water alarms etc often needed static IPs in order to remotely access and manage these systems. Today that's generally not the case anymore. Smarthome systems with some limited exceptions are fine on dynamic IPs.

Third, corporate entities recognized that a static IP was not necessary for at-home workers, and the requirement for many remote staff to have a static IP at home has been largely done away with. Instead, systems are "zero trust", and require multifactor authentication and end-to-end encryption - and as a result, employees can be anywhere, on any IP.

Finally, and the most challenging: with the deployment of symmetric services, we continue to have concerns about the "data-center in the garage" problem. Our fiber-to-the-home service is deployed with reasonable assumptions about typical household uses, and folks doing large-scale hosting would break the model. Both economically, as well as from an upstream congestion perspective.

To provide an example of how this last item could create problems, consider gigabit PON, or GPON, which has roughly 1.25Gbps of upstream capacity, which is shared between roughly 20-30 households. While each household has full 1.0Gbps upstream capacity upon demand, if one home uses for example 750Mbps constantly, the others must share the remainder and will never see the full gigabit speed when they demand it for what would normally be a brief upload.

Put another way, your own ability to congest the inbound link is generally bound by the amount of consumption in the home, which is practically limited by the number of TVs (4K and such!), the number of systems, and the size of storage. So, unless you're just intentionally downloading and discarding content, it's headed somewhere: a screen, a hard drive, etc. That limits inbound usage to the devices in the home, a finite limit.

Compare this with hosting: a small server under your desk or in your garage can host content of interest to "everyone" in the world, who then beat a path to your door (via your static IP) for whatever amazing bit of content you've got online. And that outbound usage is not constrained by the uses in the home but rather can grow to whatever the capacity of the connection is, full gigabit or even ten gigabit. That's not typical household use, it is hosting, or even ommercial use. We disallow resale for the same reason, as well as sharing with your neighbor, etc. You can't for example become a wireless ISP by reselling a single home internet connection, at any scale. Even giving an ethernet connection to your neighbor deprives Sonic of the opportunity to connect them, increasing costs for all other customers as a result of that lost opportunity.

Basically, any of these behaviors fail to support the economics of the infrastructure.

The network and our costs just don't support that sort of high outbound usage. There's a reason that a 10 gigabit connection delivered to an enterprise site with 100 employees and a data-center costs $6,000 a month instead of the $39.99/mo a home user might pay for a similar connection. And that reason isn't just the infrastructure, it is because residential members have different usage patterns than a business.
Dane Jasper
Sonic
by mbelanger » Wed Feb 21, 2024 10:08 pm
Extremely late to the party with this post, but I'd ask you to consider that your policy penalizes people with legitimate, non-bandwidth consuming use cases. For example, I'm trying to set up a high-availability firewall for our home office. Unfortunately, CARP, which is the protocol that makes it go for pfSense, requires three static IPs on the WAN.

I first signed up with Sonic aDSL some 25+ years ago because Sonic was the most technical of the ISPs. I mean, who else offered a free shell account with your service! All those years, with the exception of a horrible period where Sonic was unavailable to my area, I've been here.

I'm not expecting my plea to sway you, especially considering how much larger Sonic is than when I first signed up. And goodness knows that no one got rich catering to nerds. Ultimately, I'll figure out a solution, like a hideous double NAT hack, but I wish I could do it the right way.


Thanks,
MB
by dane » Thu Feb 22, 2024 7:05 am
I hear you. But the risks for us as well as the network complexity just don’t balance against the uncommon need for static IP with most internet applications today, which have been generally designed for a dynamic IP reality.
Dane Jasper
Sonic
by kgc » Fri Feb 23, 2024 5:25 pm
mbelanger wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 10:08 pm Unfortunately, CARP, which is the protocol that makes it go for pfSense, requires three static IPs on the WAN.
That seems *odd*. Can you describe what you're trying to do a little better and link to the doc or how to you're following?
Kelsey Cummings
System Architect, Sonic.net, Inc.
by majortom » Sat Feb 24, 2024 5:33 am
kgc wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 5:25 pm That seems *odd*. Can you describe what you're trying to do a little better and link to the doc or how to you're following?
Not sure what you consider odd (a protocol that does not support dynamic addresses or caring about having a redundant connection), but here is a link to FreeBSD’s CARP documentation if you are interested: https://freebsdfoundation.org/wp-conten ... i_CARP.pdf
by majortom » Sat Feb 24, 2024 5:46 am
dane wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:39 am Finally, and the most challenging: with the deployment of symmetric services, we continue to have concerns about the "data-center in the garage" problem. Our fiber-to-the-home service is deployed with reasonable assumptions about typical household uses, and folks doing large-scale hosting would break the model. Both economically, as well as from an upstream congestion perspective.
It is kind of funny that the first part of your post contradicts the second half. Just as the requirement for Static IP addresses has declined for other uses the requirement, DyDNS services make it just as easy to host services with Dynamic address as it is to host with a static address.
Put another way, your own ability to congest the inbound link is generally bound by the amount of consumption in the home, which is practically limited by the number of TVs (4K and such!), the number of systems, and the size of storage. So, unless you're just intentionally downloading and discarding content, it's headed somewhere: a screen, a hard drive, etc. That limits inbound usage to the devices in the home, a finite limit.
Trying to understand if you are saying you do not have any other bandwidth shaping approaches other than not providing statics IP addresses and hoping that people have not figured out how to use DyDNS?
The network and our costs just don't support that sort of high outbound usage. There's a reason that a 10 gigabit connection delivered to an enterprise site with 100 employees and a data-center costs $6,000 a month instead of the $39.99/mo a home user might pay for a similar connection. And that reason isn't just the infrastructure, it is because residential members have different usage patterns than a business.
If you are paying $6,000 a month for a 10Gb/s connection I would happily connect you to much less expensive providers. :-) Hurricane Electric charges less than $500 for 10Gb/s in their lit buildings, and even Lumen/Specturm are around $2,500 in new construction.
by crbowman » Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:28 pm
I know you've responded but I'd like to formally add my request for static IPs. I understand the bandwidth concern. But I'd really like to host a few of my own services (mail web etc) which will never become a bandwidth hog. This is the only reason I have ATT even though they are slower and more expensive.
Christopher
by kgc » Mon Feb 26, 2024 1:15 pm
@majortom, I was asking about what you were trying to accomplish so I could provide suggestions on how to achieve the same result.
Kelsey Cummings
System Architect, Sonic.net, Inc.
by majortom » Wed Feb 28, 2024 8:36 am
kgc wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2024 1:15 pm @majortom, I was asking about what you were trying to accomplish so I could provide suggestions on how to achieve the same result.
@KGC: I am not the original poster but I can explain what CARP is, and why it is typically used. CARP - Common Address Redundancy Protocol, enables multiple systems to share a single IP address to enable hardware redundancy. FreeBSD, PFsense and OPNsense all use it to support redundant firewalls and routers. Completely explained in that document I posted earlier.
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