Sonic Fiber Equipment?

Internet access discussion, including Fusion, IP Broadband, and Gigabit Fiber!
22 posts Page 1 of 3
by lasevich » Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:57 pm
Ok, so after years and years of waiting, I finally have my appointment to get the real-deal Sonic fiber installed. In preparations, I wanted to understand what to expect, what I need to have ready, and how this will all be setup in the end. Unfortunately between multiple versions of the product and confusion between AT&T and Sonic's offering - wanted to clear up some assumptions and questions:

So, as I understand a Sonic's fiber setup includes:

* Fiber run into the house
* A Device to convert fiber to copper ethernet (ONT?)
* A standard ethernet router/firewall/etc (ROUTER) - (unlike the typical DSL/Cable Routers, this does not need any modem stuff, just pure router)
* An VOIP phone line to copper adapter (ATA?)

So the questions are:

* Does fiber get terminated at the nearest entry point into the house, or would Sonic run it to a garage or some other more convenient location (In my case I think it would be about extra 20-30 feet) Since I am much more comfortable running copper, I would not mind much not running the fiber all the way, but I suspect ONT would need power, so this can get complicated...

* Does ONT need power?

* Can I just use my own router? I have a mesh wifi setup already, so do not need any router and all the double-nat/unsupported bridging configurations I am using now (I HATE the PACE nightmare of a router I get with Sonic DSL today (5268AC), the only way it is "functional" is because I had to rig up a microcontroller to reboot it every time it locks up - which happens multiple times a week)

* Where does ATA fit into all of this, is it a standalone device or something built into ONT (or, god-forbid, into a router???) And if it worst case scenario - can I buy my own ATA (I might actually have one sitting around somewhere) and/or use the Sonic router behind my own router just for ATA?

* What else am I missing?

Thanks
by klui » Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:50 am
Sonic will work with you where the fiber enters your home, within reason.

ONTs need power.

You can use your own equipment and have 2 options:
  1. Put Sonic's gateway in bridge mode
  2. Send Sonic's gateway back and connect the ONT directly into your own router's WAN port
If you use your own router, you must ensure problems are on Sonic's end or else you will be billed for the visit.

The ATA will connect to your home network and is a separate device managed by Sonic. You won't be able to access its webUI. But several settings will be configurable on your members webpage. Your phone lines terminates to the ATA appliance. You can connect it to your own router or Sonic-provided one. Connect it to Sonic's gateway and it serves as a convenient way to identify if network problems are caused by your equipment or Sonic's.

If you need to reboot your 5268ac multiple times a week, something is wrong with the RG or maybe the environment. My 5268ac, running on ATT-owned fiber, has uptimes in months, not days. The longest these past 2 years was 136 days.
by lasevich » Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:02 am
> Send Sonic's gateway back and connect the ONT directly into your own router's WAN port

That is my personal preference, I have no need for another device that will do nothing. But I wanted to confirm that is an option as in some other posts it was not always clear... I also wanted to confirm ONT will act as a pure bridge and not have any routing/natting functionality

> If you use your own router, you must ensure problems are on Sonic's end or else you will be billed for the visit.

Not a problem. 30+ years of experience in IT and technology, I know how to troubleshoot and isolate issues - but I can only fix the things I have control over, thus desire to have control over more things

>If you need to reboot your 5268ac multiple times a week, something is wrong with the RG or maybe the environment. My 5268ac, running on ATT-owned fiber, has uptimes in months, not days. The longest these past 2 years was 136 days.

Something is very, very wrong with it, but since I am using it in bridge mode (and bridge mode is not supported) I got nowhere asking for support for it and very little can be done as it is a required and locked down piece of equipment(thus my concerns).

Slightly off-topic - It is not entirely fair to say "multiple times a week" - it averages it out to that, but, for example, in the month of Aug, it happened 6 times, but only on 4 days (2 of which were consecutive. It seems to come and go. Based on some testing and observations, it is something related to load - it usually locks up under heavy traffic - and when it does, it acts like everything is fine, but stops forwarding packets until it is reset. It did not used to be a major problem, but as we moved to more and more streaming service consumption and zoom, it became a larger issue. I ended up writing a small python app that monitors the internet, and if it detects that internal network is fine but sonic's network cannot be reached it powercycles the modem. Since I enabled that, I only get 3-5 min outages instead of having to wait until I manually powercycle it every time
by klui » Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:23 pm
Sounds like your issues with the RG may be due to (bonded?) VDSL. But I had that issue when I was on legacy DSL not single pair FTTN, and definitely not fiber. When I had legacy DSL I used a script shared from DSLreports which I modified to run as a service to help reboot my DSL modem when the attenuation values got above a certain threshold.
by lasevich » Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:27 pm
klui wrote:Sounds like your issues with the RG may be due to (bonded?) VDSL. But I had that issue when I was on legacy DSL not single pair FTTN, and definitely not fiber. When I had legacy DSL I used a script shared from DSLreports which I modified to run as a service to help reboot my DSL modem when the attenuation values got above a certain threshold.
Not bonded, but I do believe it is VDSL (they are all called Fusion, but mine is nominally 50 Mbit, which is VDSL if I understand it correctly) it's also, I believe, a Sonic CO and not FTTN product...

Not sure exactly what the root cause of it was, but Pace definitely was incapable of handling it. While the lights continued to look fine (and, iirc, Sonic did not see a problem remotely) no data would pass and the UI would not respond, nor did the built-in wifi (I left it on after a while as a back way to debug issues). It sure looks like it is a firmware bug
by dane » Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:27 pm
There is a technology overview available in this post: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3389

For most customers, the equipment is the Adtran 411 documented there, which is a bridge that outputs gigabit Ethernet and POTS voice. We then pair that up with a router, generally for fiber customers today that’d be the Eero 6 mesh WiFi router and access point. Customers can also supply their own equipment, but when they do so, they forgo some many of our usual support capabilities and also become liable for truck roll fees if a site visit is necessary.

There are some limited sites today that are getting a new 10Gbps ONT, and that device provides a 10Gbps Ethernet, a 1Gbps Ethernet, plus POTS voice. It’s configured as a router, so this will result in double NAT unless the Eero is configured for bridge (access point only) mode.
Dane Jasper
Sonic
by klui » Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:06 am
It's an academic exercise as you're getting fiber but my guess is your line is not capable of 50M. You must be very close to the CO to run 1 pair for 50M. When I was on ATT resold FTTN, my distance was 2400-2900 ft from the VRAD and modem said my max rate was 40M with a limit--due to the tier I purchased--of 25M. You can find out by looking at the broadband section of the RG; my guess is your trained speed is too close to the line's maximum capacity. The double edge sword of Sonic is they will allow you to skirt to the limit of your copper connection but that might mean an unstable line. With ATT they force something like 20% or more margin between the line's trained speed vs. its maximum. When my parents had legacy DSL a long time ago they were quite far away from the CO but Sonic allowed them to use 3M but it didn't work well and only by reducing to 1.5M was the connection stable.

The 5268ac's webUI does suck and is not responsive under certain circumstances. It is probably due to some JS because when I enable cookies but not scripts the interface behaves more consistently; otherwise, certain pages will not load/render properly.

Best wishes with Sonic fiber. I still hope Sonic will deploy where I live. But most likely not in the near future since we're a small unincorporated city there's probably not a lot of users to tip the scale as opposed to larger cities.
by klui » Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:11 am
dane wrote:There are some limited sites today that are getting a new 10Gbps ONT, and that device provides a 10Gbps Ethernet, a 1Gbps Ethernet, plus POTS voice. It’s configured as a router, so this will result in double NAT unless the Eero is configured for bridge (access point only) mode.
@dane, is the 10G ONT capable of bridge mode? I would have thought the Eero would be the router of choice instead of the ONT. That limitation would mean one can't use their own equipment and not be double-NATed.

Regardless, kudos for thinking ahead and deploying 10G infrastructure.
by lasevich » Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:20 am
dane wrote:There is a technology overview available in this post: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3389
Thank you, super helpful
dane wrote: For most customers, the equipment is the Adtran 411 documented there, which is a bridge that outputs gigabit Ethernet and POTS voice. We then pair that up with a router, generally for fiber customers today that’d be the Eero 6 mesh WiFi router and access point. Customers can also supply their own equipment, but when they do so, they forgo some many of our usual support capabilities and also become liable for truck roll fees if a site visit is necessary.
Ok, so to be clear, it is a BRIDGE device - not a ROUTER?

As for truck roll fees, I completely get the admonition, and I accept it. I have 30+ years of experience in IT, networking and computer technology in general, and have reasonable troubleshooting skills. I am pretty sure by time I ask for a truck roll (if ever) I will isolate the ONT and be testing things with it directly - and if I end up being wrong and you send a truck for something that will be my own fault, I will accept financial responsibility for it.
dane wrote:There are some limited sites today that are getting a new 10Gbps ONT, and that device provides a 10Gbps Ethernet, a 1Gbps Ethernet, plus POTS voice. It’s configured as a router, so this will result in double NAT unless the Eero is configured for bridge (access point only) mode.
That is what I was a bit worried about - an "all-in-one" device that once again does not support bridge mode, so it would not support any RGs (unless the internal IP on ONT is a public IP, which I doubt is the case). This makes Eero (or my own mesh router) mostly useless, as at this point they are just dumb access points and all the tools and capabilities they provide are unusable in AP mode.

I get the value of all-in-one devices to Sonic, and I accept that I am far from a typical customer - all-in-one devices violate the basic unix-y tenet of "do one thing and do it well", instead of trying to do everything (inevitably poorly). I have been a customer of Sonic since I moved to CA in 1997, and I kept service even when I lived in places that did not have Sonic as a broadband provider, because it was Sonic, and it was worth it, and even in the times when all you got from an ISP was a dialup number, Sonic still provided a full Linux shell service with it. When I had an issue with a Sonic ordered, PacBell provided circuit back in the day, Dane, you personally handled the situation for me, even though this was by no means Sonic's fault, and believe me, it left a life-long mark on my already high opinion of Sonic in general and Dane in particular. There was always some core geek connection felt with Sonic, where I knew that Sonic was always had the awesome tools and support for the geeks like me to do what most of the customers did not even know existed, let alone wanted. Lately it feels like those years are fading into Sonic's past. As Sonic is expanding (and to be clear, I am very happy for Sonic's success), there seems to be less and less support for us geeks, and more and more acting like any other big faceless ISP. I get that some things need to be sacrificed in the name of growth, but I beg you not to forget those of us who want a bit more from our ISP than a truck roll. We are not unreasonable (ok, maybe sometimes we are, but we are willing to work on it :-) ) (I think I went way off on a rant here, sorry, getting back to the questions)

Being that my site was just finished, I suspect it has a reasonable chance of using newer setup. Out of curiosity the 10Gbps service, is it all the way out or only supported locally? (Not that it matters, I do not think I have any equipment that can even aspire to dream at 10Gbps, but think of the bragging rights!!! :-D )

So a few followup questions:

* Just to reiterate - it only the 10Gb ONT that does not support bridging, not any other ONT including Adtran 411
* If we are stuck with Sonic provided router in ONT - what is the level of control we have over its configuration and services and what is the level of support Sonic is committing to dealing with those issues? The above admonition has to work both ways. My experience with Sonic's 5268ac was underwhelming, considering I do not think firmware was ever updated and was super buggy and when I had an issue with more advanced usage, Sonic threw their hands up and said everything looks fine from their end and if I am doing something advanced (bridging mode), I am on my own anyway. I hate the idea of being stuck with unsupported setup that cannot be replaced (and from looking at this forum, there are already known Adtran firmware issues oddly similar to my 5268ac issues being reported)
* If ONT requires a non-bridging setup, is there an option to request a bridging ONT instead, and what are the consequences of such a choice (I assume at least potential 10Gbit is off the table, are there other issues?)
* Is Eero provided at additional cost? I already have a mesh network in the house I am happy with. I am willing to give Eero a shot if it is provided for free, but having spend hundreds of dollars on my mesh setup already, paying extra to rent another one does not sit well with me

Thanks,
by lasevich » Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:30 am
klui wrote:It's an academic exercise as you're getting fiber but my guess is your line is not capable of 50M. You must be very close to the CO to run 1 pair for 50M. When I was on ATT resold FTTN, my distance was 2400-2900 ft from the VRAD and modem said my max rate was 40M with a limit--due to the tier I purchased--of 25M. You can find out by looking at the broadband section of the RG; my guess is your trained speed is too close to the line's maximum capacity. The double edge sword of Sonic is they will allow you to skirt to the limit of your copper connection but that might mean an unstable line. With ATT they force something like 20% or more margin between the line's trained speed vs. its maximum. When my parents had legacy DSL a long time ago they were quite far away from the CO but Sonic allowed them to use 3M but it didn't work well and only by reducing to 1.5M was the connection stable.
I am pretty close to CO, but yes, 50 is the nominal speed, I typically get around 40/8 speeds, which, truth be told, are plenty for my needs. Once in a blue moon I need to download a huge file (Linux ISO, or VM image) and then I grumble, but overall I have not really any bandwidth complaints except when PACE goes on the fritz (which is often enough) To be clear, I will be messing with my network to squeeze out the most of the new gigabit speed, but truth be told, for no good reason.
klui wrote: The 5268ac's webUI does suck and is not responsive under certain circumstances. It is probably due to some JS because when I enable cookies but not scripts the interface behaves more consistently; otherwise, certain pages will not load/render properly.
The UI has been a dog since day one, but I have not considered turning off JS - typically these UIs are too fragile for these sorts of shenanigans - but worth trying. That said, I rarely use UI as in the bridge mode it is non-trivial to get to (I have to hop into the built-in wifi with a fixed IP setup and convince my computer to not barf at lack of internet)
klui wrote: Best wishes with Sonic fiber. I still hope Sonic will deploy where I live. But most likely not in the near future since we're a small unincorporated city there's probably not a lot of users to tip the scale as opposed to larger cities.
Thanks. It is a crapshoot in the city too - some places around here had Sonic fiber for years and years, but we are just getting it now (we had Sonic resold AT&T fiber, but no thanks - not going down that dark alley) Its frustrating, but (I am hoping) worth the wait.
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